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Category: Interviews

Charlie Hoehn Interview 2: Finding A Mentor, Workaholism & ‘Controversial Advice’…

This is Part 2 of my interview with author Charlie Hoehn. To check out Part 1, where we get into the psychology of self promotion, perfectionism, and the creative process of bringing a product to market, click here.

In Part 2 we get into how to find a mentor, workaholism versus passion, and a controversial piece of health advice Charlie refrained from putting into his latest book…



Recession-Proof Graduate closes on the point that you will have a new working position. When you have such a position, how do you get the most out of it (as a learning experience)?


It’s the same thing as asking for a favor. If you can prove yourself to be indispensable by being someone who gives more than they take, other people will reciprocate.

If you can give, give, give, give, give value to people in positions who can afford to teach you amazing things, introduce you to awesome people, and expose you to incredible and unforgettable experiences, you will be given the things you want, and you don’t even have to ask.

People come to me and say, “how do I get a mentor?” or, “will you be my mentor?”. That’s not how it works.

A true mentorship is never formalised. There’s no magic moment when someone says “I am your mentor”. It’s just a relationship with another person who is in a position to teach you.

I’ve taught a number of people who did work with me some really valuable, cool stuff, and not once did we mention that it was a mentorship or an apprenticeship. It just was what it was. It was a relationship that was mutually beneficial because they could give me something I needed, and I could give them something they wanted.

The best way to approach it is to think in terms of “Who can I give so much to that they would want to spend more and more time with me because I gave them so much?”


That’s really helpful. What other suggestions would you give a 21-or 22-year-old graduate who’s just come out of school?


I gave this talk to a 28-year-old yesterday. An hour-long talk about this very topic.

The first thing you’ve got to recognize is the way that everybody else goes about this is wrong. It does not work. Sending out resumés, sending out cover letters, applying to companies you don’t want to work for is not the way to do this. You need to abandon that completely.

Resumés suck because all they say is, “Hey, here’s my contact info. Here’s what school I went to. Here are some written one-sentence descriptions of things I’ve done, and here are my skills”. Great, that’s perfect if you’re a robot, but the average person has no idea what you’re capable of doing from it. You have to show them.

The way you need to go about getting your name out there is by actually going out and talking to people. You need to have a real-life relationship with these people. Actually talk to people and to sell yourself, and the way to sell yourself is by overcoming their objections:

“I don’t want to have to pay someone right away”.
“I don’t know if this person is trustworthy”.
“I don’t know what kind of work they can do”.
“I don’t know what they have to offer”.

Every single employer is going to have these objections, and they’re going to have them no matter what kind of resumé you show them.

Ideally you would come to them with some ideas or past work that’s similar to what you would be doing for them; a portfolio of sorts. This proves to them: I can do this.

Before making contact, you have to research them. You have to actually take the time and mean what you’re saying; you’re not just bullshitting them.

Say: “There are areas in your business that I think I could help with, and there are some potential problem areas that I might be able to solve as well”.

You have to act like a trusted advisor. Act like somebody who’s on the board of the company. Even though you might be some unemployed, random college kid coming out of left field, act like you’ve already been hired and that you have a stake in the company.

This is a very different mentality from other college graduates who say, “Hey, you’re one of 40 companies I’m talking to over the next month. Will you hire me?”

Add to that: “You don’t have to pay me, you don’t have to hire me on, just let me do a free trial for the next two weeks. I’ll send you the work, let me know what you think, and if you don’t like it, you can throw it away. You’ll never hear from me again, and there will be zero hard feelings. I love what you guys are doing, I want to work on something I care about, and I’m trying to get some experience. It would be a huge honor to just say I tried” – and that becomes very hard to resist.

Even if you don’t get a shot, who cares? You tried.

There is so much opportunity out there, it’s ridiculous. But everyone misses it, and so many companies are falling apart because there’s no one out there being aggressive about going to get those opportunities.

You have to go out and make shit happen for yourself or you’ll be sitting in your parents’ basement till you’re 30.

Communicate your value and be aggressive about giving.


With that in mind, what’s your current stance on whether young people should go to college or not?


I sometimes wish every city was designed to be like a college campus. I think it would be cool to just see communities of people every day, and have it be centered around learning and trying things.

If you can afford it, and you have a good idea of what you want to do – if you’re not obsessive with grades, but obsessed with getting experience in doing stuff – college is a great choice.

College is a great place to go get good at talking to girls (or guys) and a great place to practise being an adult.

The classes that I got the most out of were classes I was not required to take. I would drop into film editing and media classes that fascinated me, and no one ever stopped me. I never took the tests, but I still got to go.


Okay, fantastic. I’d now love to touch on the topic of workaholism. To quote a 2009 piece from your blog Thoughts on Tour, you wrote of being on tour with Tucker Max, “In exchange for remaining in a perma-exhausted state, I’m getting paid to receive a film school-level education in less than six weeks. Sounds like a good deal to me”.

With everything you’ve since been through and subsequently written about in Play it Away, do you still agree with that statement? And from there, what do you think the 22-year-old Charlie would have made of Play It Away had you handed it to him?


I’m so glad I’m doing an interview with somebody who knows my work as well as you. This is really cool.

I think there’s a fine line between workaholism and passion, and I think one is driven by an avoidance of the present.

When I wrote that, I sincerely meant it. I was having so much fun on that tour and surrounded by a bunch of crazy people who were just trying to have a good time. We got to travel around the country, I got to make funny videos – that was my job – and it was just cool. Working my tail off back then, it was totally worth it, and I wouldn’t have traded the experience for anything.

It got dangerous however when I started pumping myself with stimulants and drugs to fight my body’s ability to recover and sleep properly. I started getting obsessed with the future, rather than just being in the moment. When my thinking became, “This is going to lead to a bigger bank account in the future”, things really started to go awry.

When you’re loving the work, it’s different to when you’re working towards a future promise.

It’s quite hard to grasp, but when you’ve experienced both, you kind of know.

There are still certain parts of every job that aren’t fun, but you know if it’s largely driven by you being in the moment.


I know that around the time of the 4-Hour Body launch, while working with Tim you were getting about an hour’s sleep a night, and getting through it by mega-dosing with vitamin C and L-lysine to stop yourself from getting ill. Are there any tricks/hacks you learned from exhausting periods like this that you still employ today, just to better cope with the day-to-day stress of your life?


I’m a big fan of fasting. Anybody can fast one day a week, and there are really practical reasons to take 24 hours off food, and to only drink distilled water. Your body is hammered with unnatural stuff, and by giving yourself a break to process it once a week, you’re giving yourself a break 52 days out of the year.

There’s tons of science backing the benefits of fasting, it’s not dangerous, and you’re not going to starve. I believe that it’s one of the best things you can do for yourself.

Another big thing for me is taking time away from screens to get outside and play.

I used to just prefer to work. To work all the time and be great at what I did, but I had to learn these lessons the hard way.

No amount of money can be traded for feeling great, having more energy, thinking more clearly, being more vibrant, and feeling more alive.

People will read that and think “Yea, yea” and eventually start breaking down. It happens to everybody at some point. We all know these things intuitively, but until you go through the trial by fire and experience it yourself, it’s a lesson you’re going to have to learn.


Following on from that, in the book you mentioned that friends used to refer you to as the “Chuck Norris of all-nighters”.

How have you been able to get out of the habit, and actually learn to shut off at the end of the day?


There are so many health complications that can come from a lack of sleep.

I used to stay up really late just looking at email and all the other stuff, then roll awake a few hours later and do it all over again. It’s taken a major toll on my health, and I don’t recommend it to anyone else. I’m 28 now, and I had to do a lot of work to reverse adrenal fatigue.

I became a lot more conscious about my quality of sleep, and have tried to stop looking at screens after 9pm. But it’s really hard because the internet is always on.

I would love for somebody to invent something called ‘Office Hours’ that shuts off everything but your phone and text messages past a certain hour, so that say from 8pm to 6am, you can’t access anything on the internet except GPS.

I still struggle with it for sure, but I’m much better than I used to be.


With that mindset are you able to detach yourself from looking at other people who might be going down that road and say, “Okay, I’m the tortoise in this race, and it’s eventually going to catch up with you”?


It’s crazy! I’ve talked to people who are on the verge of adrenal fatigue and burnout. I watched a girl have a panic attack in front of me. People aren’t invincible. We just aren’t.

When you’re young, you can get away with it for a while, but it eventually catches up.

You are punished by your bad habits.

Our lifestyles are really messed up. We stay indoors all day, we deprive ourselves of sunlight, we don’t sleep when it’s night, we eat totally unnatural stuff, we don’t move.

When you don’t act according to nature, nature takes a toll. Slowly but surely, it happens. No one escapes it. Do everything you can to get back in accordance with it.


That about wraps it up. I learned a ton, and hope you did too.

If you’ve read this far and you haven’t already, I’d highly recommend that you head on over to Amazon and pick up both Play it Away and Recession-Proof Graduate.

These two books have had an enormous impact on my life, and I think, quite strangely, they make for a very interesting pairing.

I’ve read Play it Away cover to cover three times. The first time I read it I stopped doing some really stupid things. After the second time, I achieved greater balance in my life. Since the third reading, I’ve been having a blast with everything that I do. I can honestly say that I’m living a more enjoyable and fulfilling life as a result of it. It’s given me a mindset shift in how I approach my work and career, and it’s something I think we could all strive to benefit from.

*Grab The Book Here*

You can find more about Charlie on his blog
And follow him on Twitter: @CharlieHoehn

Charlie Hoehn Book Interview: Self Promotion, Perfectionism & $2M Product Launches

Charlie’s sat in a closet to take my call. So is the life of the 28-year old who’s launched many a bestselling book, written two of his own, and helped manage a two million dollar product launch (whose wifi now won’t seem to work with his laptop). Technology can be a pain for even the best of us it seems.

This is Skype call number 5 of 8 for the day in a new weekly schedule he’s trying out, but little does Charlie know that after following his work for 2+ years, I have a bucket-load of scrupulous questions I want to fire his way, covering everything from perfectionism to workaholism, to landing a dream job.

The Interview

This is one the most detailed interviews I’ve seen Charlie give on product launches, the psychology of self promotion, and the creative process of bringing a product to market. The excepts below are full of gold for anyone looking to make a name for themselves, write a book, launch a product, or branch out to do their own thing. Enjoy!


You’ve done 50 million interviews in the last few months and so I’m going to try and come at you with a fresh set of questions today. (If you want to get more into Charlie’s backstory – pick up a copy of Play It Away or check out any of the interviews Charlie has already done). I want to take things a bit deeper and go “beyond the book” in this interview.

To kick things off, I know self-promotion is something you’ve battled with for a long time. I’d love to hear how you got over it yourself and got to feeling comfortable promoting your own products.


I have always been pretty modest and humble, so I took the standpoint that if my material is ever going to take off, it’s going to do so of its own accord, and because the quality is so good, people can’t help but share it.

I focused firstly on how good the material was. That was the bigger priority over any sort of self promotion.

With the book (Play It Away), I wanted to make sure that other people could comfortably recommend it. When I did the beta readers, it became their book too, so it wasn’t just mine.

People often focus too much on helping themselves, marketing their own stuff, and don’t understand why other people won’t recommend it.

They give no thought to the kinds of conversations other people could have about their work. They give no thought to how someone would recommend it in a way that would make them look better.

Think about your product in terms of how people would ACTUALLY mention it in conversation.

Help your potential readers finish these sentences:

–This book was perfect for me because… [blank]
–You know, it’s exactly like [blank], except it’s [blank] (e.g. If you’re designing an app: “It’s exactly like AirBnb, but for meals.”)

Self promotion is pretty easy when you focus on helping other people, and you just happen to be a character along the way.

Play It Away wasn’t about me. It was about workaholics. It was about perfectionists and people who were super stressed out and don’t say anything. I just happened to be the person with the story to tell, comfortable enough to tell it.


Why do you think it’s so much harder to market your own work than someone else’s?


Because it’s a reflection of you. It’s intimidating because you’re opening it up for the whole world to judge, and everything ultimately depends on you. You’re responsible for the quality of the material, and failure is yours and yours only.

It’s easy to market other people’s material – especially if it’s better than what you would be capable of producing – because you’re fan.

It’s hard to be a huge fan of your own work in the same way.

For me to get over that hump, I had to work with people who are very comfortable promoting their own work. The guys I worked with all got over their insecurities and are very comfortable marketing their own stuff. I just copied what they did and took it as a system, rather than depending on my emotions.


Related to that, do you find internal resistance when asking other people for help in general?


Yes, and to get over it you have to make it worth it for them.

Most people are super busy, they have a million other things to do which are more pleasurable than helping you, and you have to incentivise it somehow.

With readers of mine who applied to be beta-readers for the book, I promised to include them in the acknowledgements, I gave them a free consultation call which I usually charge upwards of $1,000 for, and made the point that this would get them an early copy of the book for free.

I’m sure people would have done it without those things, but I don’t think it would have had anywhere near as enthusiastic a response.


Do you have the same mindset with small things? (e.g. asking for advice or for someone to give feedback on a blog post you’re writing)


I snapped at a friend the other day who had asked me to make him an introduction – not to a specific person, but if I knew anyone in specific companies. I was impatient at the time, and with a short fuse said, “Dude, YOU have to look this stuff up! You can’t make me do (your) work.” That’s how I feel a lot, and I know for a fact other people feel that too who are far busier than I am.

You can’t create work for people. You have to come to it thinking how you can have this serve them. I’ll respond positively to those kinds of emails all day long.

With making requests myself, I realise that people feel guilty about stuff they have to turn down, and so I automatically absolve them of that guilt for every favor I ask. Even stuff that’s fun!

For example, I do a recess every Friday that’s a get-together at a park. I send an email every Thursday to all my local friends as a reminder, and at the end say “If you can’t make it or don’t want to come, no need to RSVP – I don’t hold it against you, it’s just for us to have fun together.”

Have the mentality that: this is a gift. This will help you. Very little is required of you.

Put yourself in their shoes, know what their objections are, and ask yourself how you can immediately overcome them. If you can be a giver, you will find yourself in amazing situations around incredible people.


I couldn’t agree more! Moving onto perfectionism, you’ve said in other interviews that the single biggest thing you took away from working with the guys you’ve worked with is an “insanely high standard” for the things you put out. Looking at Play It Away, it’s evident immediately that that’s the case. When doing something creative, how do you know when you’re being a ‘productive perfectionist’ versus procrastinating and getting into territory that Seth Godin might call ‘being a coward’?


That’s a great question.

Getting over perfectionism is doing what scares you: getting your work in front of other people and getting their feedback.

I’m always going to be slightly embarrassed of the work, because it’s never going to live up to the vision I had in my head.

It’s something I still battle with, but there are a number of ways to get over this:

Firstly, you have to recognise when you’re just going slow.

When I’m slowing down to a crawl with something, for example with writing sales copy, I recognise that I might just have to pay someone to do it for me. If it’s taking too long, and there are tons of people who are willing to do the work – and who can do it better and faster – I’m going to take it off my plate.

Secondly, I think there’s something to be said for perfectionism!

Talking with a friend the other day about what our greatest weaknesses as entrepreneurs are, he said, “I get a lot of stuff done, but it’s C-material. I’m a father and I see my son taking on that quality, and I really wish I had the tenacity to push through and be better.”

I really do think my work is a standard higher than a lot of other things out there, and that it’s memorable for that reason.

If I didn’t work alone (and I’m considering how to do this right now), I’d really thrive if I was around a team of doers. I’m a great editor and curator, and I can make things better. But in terms of getting things done if I’m on my own and have no deadline that’s being enforced, I can get caught up working on stuff for a long, long time.


Do you still try to impose your own deadlines?


Here’s what I do…

I set a 60-90 minute timer whenever I sit down to work. When it goes off, I close my laptop, get up, and go do something for 10-30 minutes (walk around, get some sun, eat a meal). I then go back and do that again 2-3 times a day, and when I do, I get stuff done.

If you sit there and FOCUS (and not distract yourself), staring down a clock, only able to focus on one thing, you can actually get things done.


Shifting gears slightly, you worked with Chad Mureta and were part of the launch of App Empire which brought in over $2 million on launch. I’d firstly love to hear what goes into a launch of that calibre (in terms of affiliates, offer etc.), and secondly, why in knowing how to pull something like that off, you instead decided to write a book for yourself (versus producing a video product).


To answer your first question, led by myself, Chad and a sales/technical marketing genius Jason Adams, the launch was crazy!

As a brief version of what happened…

The launch had over 100 affiliates, but there were only 12 or so that really produced. Of those, only a handful totally dominated. That’s the thing with affiliates – people think having a bunch is great – really it’s having one or two that are amazing that will change everything. [Ed’s note: The 80/20 rule applied to online marketing].

There was an amazing sequence of emails everyone sent to their lists to have them sign up for information about the course, and then there was an 8-hour live webinar to launch it.

I had directed the entire course, helped edit it, and directed the packaging. It was SO MUCH. This was a huge undertaking, in a very short space of time, and I think all of us were surprised by how well it went.

We hit the right timing, demand was high, it was a high margin product (at $2,000), we had a lot of stuff going for us, and we all knew how to market. We knew what we were doing, and all had a high standard of excellence.

To your second question, I wanted people to have my solution in a cheap and available format.

I wanted to write this as a book, and it was something I wanted to exist.

I know all the work that goes into writing a book – it’s exhausting. I know all the work that goes into making a course – it’s also exhausting. And ultimately I thought I would make a great product if I made it into a book.

There are a ton of benefits to writing a book.

Doors open that you just didn’t know were there, it’s a different perception, and there’s still a lot of magic in having a physical book that you’ve written.

I had a guy reach out to me to say, “I read your book and it saved my life. I’m a professional speaker on the speaking circuit, I make a quarter of million dollars a year, and I was so burned out. Your book was the first thing that showed me why my life felt so awful, and why I couldn’t tell anyone about it.” I’ve had veterans say similar things to me.

There’s something unique about having a book that just isn’t the same with other mediums.

There’s romance and nostalgia associated with books. They’re a powerful, high-brow thing that can lead to more paid speaking – which is something I’m currently looking to do more of – and if you’re an author, you can charge double (at the low end) what other speakers charge.


Do you think (among content producers), there’s a certain stigma attached to those who exclusively go down the road of making video courses?


Books and video courses are ultimately both information products.

People do have a stigma for those who just make video courses – I think – but that’s changing.

Video courses are higher-priced products, so people are automatically wary. They cost more because they’re easier to consume and more expensive to produce, and you have to keep in mind, some people just hate books!

For anyone considering either avenue, it depends on your goals.

If you’re trying to make money, you’re going to have to create something that’s in demand, and you’re going to have to move enough units (per whatever you’re charging) to make a profit. It doesn’t matter if you’re going into books or video.

If you think going into video is the way because you can charge more – wrong. The topic HAS to be in demand. It has to be proven that people want it, and you have to do an amazing job.

I know authors that make $30,000 a month selling books. I know authors who have made $250,000 in a month! I also know people who have made 5 quality video courses who are only making $4,000 a month.

At the end of the day, you have to create something that people actually want to buy, and will CONTINUE to want to buy.

I’d also add the note of caution that doing video courses WELL is not without its challenges. It’s REALLY HARD to build up an email list. You need a *team* in order to do this stuff. Frankly, most people don’t have the patience, the money, or the intestinal fortitude to get through a lot of this stuff. It’s just HARD. There’s a reason there are very few people at the top.

You might compare yourself to someone and think, “I’m just like them.”

What you might miss is that to be that ambitious, and to continue to kill it like that, a lot of these people are CRAZY on some very real level…


That wraps it up for Part 1!

I hope you got as much out of reading this as I did putting it together. I’ll be back next week with Part 2 where Charlie and I get into apprenticeships, making a name for yourself, workaholism, what Charlie would have made of Play It Away at 22-years old, and much, much more.

Don’t want to wait for Part 2? Check out Charlie’s expanded paperback version of Recession Proof Graduate.

Pursuing the strategy he outlines in this book, Charlie was able to land THREE dream jobs in a row. He became Tim Ferriss’s first-full time employee (and ended up working with him for three years), Tucker Max’s videographer (and got to travel around the United States shooting hilarious videos), and got to help Ramit Sethi launch his book (with whom he went on to create the iPhone app Negotiate It).

*Grab Your Copy On Amazon Here*

Ryan Holiday Book Interview: The Obstacle Is The Way

This is one for *true fans* of Ryan Holiday.

People who follow his work, have read his books, and are interested in the man behind the writing.

This is one of the most in-depth, detailed interviews Ryan has ever given (which I can say, having I think watched / listened to ALL of his other interviews on Youtube / iTunes).

We get deep into the specifics of his books and how he operates, and serve up a whole bunch of practical solutions for you to take away and put into practice in your own life.

If you’re a fledgling author, journalist, editor or manager – this is a must watch.

In the interview we cover…

–The EXACT timeline Ryan followed to write, sell and market his first book
–How to identify and get strategic about your strengths and weaknesses
–5 questions to streamline your life
–How to become a better storyteller (it turns out there’s really no mystery to it)
–A meticulous overview of Ryan’s note-card system for researching and writing books
–Ryan’s personal media habits (specifically who and what he reads)
–How to ‘test’ a book idea and find out what your audience really wants
–The ways in which Ryan has personally been influenced by growth hacking (this will likely help if you’re currently on the fence about learning to program)
–How to be a creative who also builds teams and manages people
–My two favourite stories from the upcoming The Obstacle Is The Way

And we finish with…

10 quick-fire questions such as what time Ryan wakes up and what a typical breakfast looks like.

(If you’re not interested in the media and online journalism, skip ahead to 13.39. If you want to get straight to us talking about the about-to-be-released The Obstacle Is The Way, skip to 26.17.)

Here it is. Watch, enjoy, and be sure to leave a comment.

Grab your copy of The Obstacle Is The Way on Amazon here.

Find Ryan and sign up to his monthly email reading newsletter here. (highly recommended)

Here are links to articles mentioned in the interview…

What to Measure? The Question Journalism Has to Answer
Maker’s Schedule, Manager’s Schedule – Paul Graham
The Notecard System: The Key For Remembering, Organizing And Using Everything You Read

And here are my personal takeaways…


[*] Most problems in society exist because of some entrenched reason or human flaw – usually laziness, comfort or fear.

[*] Most online media is “fruit from the poison tree”. Try not to read in a breaking news format; read analysis and opinion from smart people you trust.

[*] Ask: Where is the angle? A headline is really just communicating that in its most succinct, compelling way.

[*] Test ideas in conversations with friends, and writing style on a particular topic in blog posts, and in small, low-consequence ways (before really investing in an idea you’re yet to prove can work).

[*] Someone: “That’s not possible.” You: “Really, because all these sites do that, and I stole the idea from them, so why don’t you get to work?”

[*] When hiring, find programmers who have taught themselves if you want someone with a more expansive understanding of how things can be glommed together and made to work.

[*] To be a maker AND a manager, you have to be selective with clients and the type of people you work with. Organise your schedule to that of a ‘maker’ early in the day (for the limited number of hours you can), and a manager’s schedule for the rest of the day. Use weekends to catch up.

[*] Having the ability to understand both worlds (maker / manager) makes you much more effective at both.

[*] Different situations call for different responses, and the same situation for different individuals requires different responses.

[*] Understand where you’re strong and where others are weak; where you’re weak and others are strong. Focus on strength going against weakness, and never weakness going against strength.

[*] What do I bring to the table that is uniquely suited to this given situation? How can I lean into that and emphasise it and get the most out of it?

[*] When weighing up ‘strategically quitting’ vs. giving up, ask: Will this help me with my mission and where I want to be in 20 years time?

[*] You only have so much energy. Decide the places you are best suited to pour those energies into.

[*] Have a Socratic dialogue with yourself. Ask questions. Examine things. Push past your first impression and default assumption. See what lies underneath, flattering or not.

[*] “I’m never coasting and I’m never taking the easy way, but I’m trying to think about…
–What do I want out of my life?
–What am I happy doing? What am I unhappy doing?
–Where am I wasting time and energy?
–How can I eliminate those things from my life?”

(Just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ask these questions either)

[*] Ask smart people around you who can perhaps see your situation more objectively than you can.

[*] Take people who don’t believe in you, and be fuelled by that (privately).

[*] Keep in your mind, the idea floating around: You are going to die.

(Thinking about it provides value, perspective and motivation that you can put to use.)

[*] “Comfort is the worst kind of slavery because you’re always afraid that something or someone will take it away.”

[*] External success is out of your control.

(If you do your work out of motivation for validation, you are setting yourself up for a very miserable life.)

[*] “I write a lot. I publish a lot. I get a lot of feedback.”

[*] “I don’t write a word until every sentence and chapter is laid out in advance.” (read more on this here)

[*] “Today I’m working on the intro; we’re starting. I’m taking those notecards from that section and I’m crafting them into a chapter. And then the next day I start on chapter one. And then chapter two… And one foot in front of the other until three of four months later you’ve got a draft.”


I hope you enjoyed the interview.

Grab your copy of The Obstacle Is The Way now!

© 2018